Ep. 11 Clay Olsen: Why We Need to Remove Shame from Pornography Addiction

Ken Krogue: Hi everybody! Ken Krogue and Thom Harrison here. We’ve got our dear friend, Clay Olsen. He’s the cofounder of Fight the New Drug and several other pretty exciting projects coming online. Clay, Thanks for joining us.

Clay Olsen: Thanks for having me.

Thom Harrison: It’s great to have you here, Clay.

Ken Krogue: You know, we’ve interacted… Thom has been involved with Operation Underground Railroad now for over a year. We’ve been helping a little bit with some of the social media strategies. We’ve been out on the web looking at a lot of the organizations that we’re interacting with and you guys, you’re gigantic. I mean you’ve got a huge community that you’ve built together. You’re going on almost 10 years now?

Clay Olsen: Almost 10 years, yeah.

Thom Harrison: That’s wonderful. Phenomenal.

Ken Krogue: I mean, we’re fine. I mean our goal is to pull together a community that explores God-centered mental health, and the name of it is EternalCore. But boy, you guys have sort of set the standard for how to do it, especially among the millennial generation. Can you talk about that for us a little bit?

Clay Olsen: Yeah. I mean about Fight the New Drug or the millennial generation?

Ken Krogue: Yeah, and your vision, how this came together.

Clay Olsen: We were college students, and so when we talk about the millennial generation, it wasn’t necessarily

Ken Krogue: You weren’t thinking that.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, we weren’t thinking like how do we capture them? It was more like how do we capture our peers? How do we talk to people, you know, address this subject that is just such a dominant challenge among our peers and our friends and our generation? We’re thinking of like, how can we change the conversation about this and provide hope and healing for those that are struggling? And help people connect in real, authentic ways? And also fight for those that don’t have voices and that are being victimized. So it really started back in school when a few buddies and myself were talking about ambitions that we wanted to achieve and accomplish and one of these individuals said, you know, “It’d be cool” just kind of throwing it out there. He said, “Wouldn’t it be cool to do an anti-porn billboard?” And we were like, “What? That is so left field idea and concept,” but it kind of sparked something.

Clay Olsen: And previously, in years ago prior to that, my own cousin who had struggled with a struggle and a compulsion to pornography for years, he actually, it had led him to need it more and more often in a more extreme version. And he actually ended up acting out in a way that was not only inappropriate but very illegal. And he went to prison. So when he recommended that it was kind of like, “Now hold on, there might be something to that.” It’s so controversial and so not popular to talk about. But what if we could? What if we can actually create something that actually, not only connected with our peers, but inspired them to join a community, to be a part of something, to be a part of a solution and help shift the dialogue and a culture in a more positive and in a healthy way. I mean that was kind of a challenge. So we were young and naive and that was our strongest suit at the time, you know, we were just kind of like, “Why not?” And I think that’s… Luckily we didn’t have more experience; otherwise we’d have walked away.

Ken Krogue: Yeah. Wow, “What were we thinking?”

Clay Olsen: Yeah. So we just went, not knowing how to create a nonprofit and not knowing exactly who we were and what we were going to do. We just kind of jumped in.

Thom Harrison: So basically you plowed with hope. You just went busy and said, “Well maybe, maybe we will grow some crop here.”

Clay Olsen: Yeah, I mean, we didn’t know anything. We went door to door asking for money, because we had never done a nonprofit. We didn’t have any funding.

Ken Krogue: By the way, which doors did you go to? I’m going to go there myself.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. Apparently, you need permits. So don’t do it. We didn’t have any. So apparently we were doing it illegally. But I think we got maybe a grand total of 20 bucks out from the door and nothing. We were just brick wall after brick wall after brick wall. And finally, we’re kind of going to throw in the towel. Because, here we were, a few college students and we wanted to do something not only around a topic that was pretty taboo and controversial, but also we wanted to do it in a way that there was no precedent. There was no kind of like, ‘like this’ or ‘like that.’ It was really difficult to get donors to kind of catch the vision with a bunch of kids that had no sort of traction or background.

Thom Harrison: So thank you for being our precedent.

Ken Krogue: Thank you. He plowed the deep snow. But, in fairness, you did have some pretty innovative background with agency work.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. I had started a creative agency. So, I had a team of people I was working with at the time. We had clients all over.

Ken Krogue: I’ve seen some of your work. It is good stuff.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. Well, I thank you. So I had my background was in the creative world and creating something. So I looked at this and saying, “Hey,” you know, “Couldn’t we do something using the assets and skills that we had acquired and couldn’t we do something?” So, there was a little bit of that background, but we were still totally coming into a world that we had no idea what we’re doing.

Ken Krogue: Well, 2 million followers later.

Clay Olsen: Three now.

Ken Krogue: Three million. Wow! Yeah, that was yesterday. But wow. It’s like almost 10 years, right? You’ve built the infrastructure.

Clay Olsen: Yes. I mean there was people, sometimes I run into people and they say like, “Oh yeah, Fight the New Drug, you guys have been around for like a couple years now,” thinking that we’re just this overnight kind of explosion. And I’m like, “You have no idea.” This has been in the works for a long time. And for many years, we were kind of just petering along and there’s been growth every year. But I remember when we finally did get funding, and we convinced somebody to take a chance on us. Roger Boyer from the Boyer Company in Salt Lake City. We worked with them for six months trying to convince them that we had an idea that was worth funding, and it gave us enough for me to leave my agency. I told my partners I was moving on. And it was not a popular decision among my wife and others. They were kind of thinking, “What are you thinking?” But, we did it. We moved on. It was just me at the time, and I didn’t know who we were or what, you know, what direction we’re going to go.

Clay Olsen: I was sitting there typing on a computer by myself, kind of like our mission statement. We were just figuring ourselves out, and I got a phone call. And it was a school counselor in a school, you know, probably a couple hours away from us. I answered the phone and he’s like, “Is this Fight the New Drug?” And this is the first time I’d ever received a phone call. I was like, “Oh, yes it is.” And he goes, “Do you do school presentations?” We had never done a school presentation ever and I said, “Absolutely we do.” And he goes, “Could you come at this day?” And I said, “Absolutely.” So I hung up the phone and I was like, “What have I just done?” So, at that point, we had to just figure out what were we going to tell these high school students that was school appropriate, but how are we going to present it in a way that was going to connect and get them kind of excited about the movement. Because we were really trying to create a movement even though at the time we were nothing of the sort. I’ve said this in the past, but I’m sure glad that there was no cameras at that first presentation because, you know, it was a rough road.

Ken Krogue: Now you’re in countries all over the world.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. Because of that, we got another, and another, another. Now, we do hundreds every year. We have presenters all over, not only the country, but around the world. We have presenters in Spain and Trinidad, in Guatemala, and one training right now, getting certified in New Zealand. We have presenters all over. So, you know, we’ve been able to kind of grow. And the demand for this, some understanding and some awareness around this topic, is just so needed and it’s so high. The demand is so high that we don’t do any sort of soliciting on our own.

Ken Krogue: They just come to you.

Clay Olsen: All of those interested are inquiries that come to us. So, it kind of tells you just how much people are desperate for answers on this.

Ken Krogue: You’ve hit a nerve. Well I’ve been watching and studying sort of what you guys have been doing. It’s interesting because there’s been some research about the, back to the millennial generation for a minute. But I understand that 57 percent, almost 60 percent, of the millennials have left the religious organization they grew up with. Now I know Fight the New Drug has had to take a pretty strong stance on where you’re going to put your focus. And it’s not religious based. It’s more researched based. But can you talk about that for a minute? And then I don’t want to go into this path I wanted to go down about the millennials.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, so Fight the New Drug is not a religiously based organization. It doesn’t have any sort of political association or affiliation.

Ken Krogue: You don’t lobby.

Clay Olsen: No, you know, we’re not trying to pass bills. We’re not trying to take away people’s right to view pornography. We’re trying to educate so that people have the ability to make an educated decision on the topic. So, Fight the New Drug, as far as the staff and the team that does everything, we have individuals that have no faith at all, different faiths and different religions and, you know, agnostic to faith. So it’s a mix of individuals to come together, kind of check those things at the door, because we are presenting this more as a public health concern rather than a morality issue.

Ken Krogue: And rightly so.

Clay Olsen: So we’re focused on science facts and personal accounts. All the content that we generate is centered around those aspects. So, you know, individuals within the organization definitely have strong belief systems, but the organization itself is…

Ken Krogue: Your charter’s pretty clear.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, its separate.

Ken Krogue: Now, you’ve just come out with some exciting new messaging around mind, heart and world. Talk about that. I was blown away how cool that was.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. For years now…

Ken Krogue: A lot of work.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. I don’t want to tell you the actual amount of time we spent on it because it’s embarrassing. But, for many years now, we’ve been working on a three-part docu series, a documentary series that focuses on the three main pillars of harm or risk that pornography provides. So brain, heart, world. Episode one focuses on the brain, looking into and analyzing the neurological impacts of pornography to individuals. Episode two focuses on relationships, and so it’s called the heart. It focuses on connection, relationships. And number three, episode three, focuses on society. So it’s focusing on the larger contributions to challenges that we face as a culture. And it’s done in a way that isn’t that dark room with the illuminated screen on the face where it’s kind of like very shameless. It’s very light. In fact, Thom, you were at the screening that we did.

Thom Harrison: It’s wonderful.

Ken Krogue: So we’ve got to get rid of these dark curtains, is what you’re telling me. These dark suits, Thom, what were we thinking?

Clay Olsen: For a long time when people would kind of come out and talk about their story, it was like, changed voice, dark shaded face, because there was so much shame centered, surrounding this subject. One of the focuses is that we try to just alleviate that. We try to kind of say, “Look, this is a challenge that we’re facing as a culture. Let’s talk about this. Let’s remove shame. You’re not a bad person for struggling with this or viewing this content” You know, we need to provide hope, and we need to provide support, and we need to provide love to those that are in that challenge and struggle. You know, very different than what a lot of people experience.

Clay Olsen: So this documentary series, each one is a half hour long, and with an accompanying discussion guide so people can use these in school systems, and church groups, or even at home. My mother called me the other day and she said that she was at the mechanic’s getting her car fixed. And the person at the register said she recognized the name and said, “Are you Clay Olsen’s mom?” And she said, “Well yeah, that’s my son.” And she goes, and then she just went off on how she had used the documentary series and sat down with her son. They watched them together, and they discussed it. And she said, “We talked about things that we would have never been able to talk about.” And she was like tearing up and expressing her gratitude for this series.

Clay Olsen: That was kind of like this, you know, that’s exactly what we were kind of hoping for. To provide some tools in a fun, dynamic, high production value way that would really analyze the research, analyze the stories, and the connection to people. Again, have a more educated view. We flew to Germany to interview experts. We flew to Japan, to the UK. We went all over searching for stories. We were searching for the leading experts on these topics so that we could kind of encapsulate that in a powerful way that would connect with youth and educate them. So we’re excited about that resource.

Ken Krogue: Yeah.

Thom Harrison: The excitement at those was so contagious. I mean there are people that were so excited. My wife couldn’t stop talking about it because she said, “Now this is the way to present this.” Where could people come to look at those? Can you find those?

Clay Olsen: So brainheartworld.org is where all of those three episodes are going to be found. And you can find them off the website, fightthenewdrug.org as well. But brainheartworld.org is where you can kind of go and take a look at it, watch the trailer, watch the three episodes.

Ken Krogue: Great. Wonderful. Well, back to my other pathway I wanted to go down. I’ve been watching some of the research, particularly about the millennials, and how they’ve really lost trust in a lot of the organizations, religious, governmental. And the study that I saw showed 57.8 percent have left the religion or the church they grew up in. Then I compared the methodologies, the different religious organizations were using to try and invite them back or retain them. I found most organizations were about the same. They were losing about the same. One group stood out, the Christian Evangelicals. And I just take my hat off, because they’ve got it figured out. So we sat back, and just sort of on my own time, we spent a lot of time talking to folks, looking at the things that they’ve done. And it was so enlightening, because it goes right down the path, you’ve figured out as well. They focused on Christian music. They found that the Christian rock especially was something that they could add value. They didn’t, you know, try and have a supplemental. They had a focus on Christian music. The Christian movie industry was the second big platform that’s huge. And that’s a big market. I know Sony pictures just bought one of their big studios.

Ken Krogue: But the third was right down the path you’re on. They took a lot of time in the research, checking with the academics and the scholars. They took a totally different approach than everybody else including, you know, us here in Utah. But they said, “Look, we’ll get entrepreneurs and youth ministers on campus face to face. So we’re going to take the research, but we’re going to simplify and bring it in. And we’re going to get face to face and work with the kids, work with the young people, and address the hard questions.” Their retention of their young people is dramatically better. So I’m blown away that you’ve sort of gone the same path. You’ve said, “We’ve got to get face to face on the campuses.” Tell us a little about some of that interaction. What does it look like? What did you find you had to do to really make the impact in the schools to assist them with this problem?

Clay Olsen: Yeah, I mean we have a mantra at Fight the New Drug that’s, “Make it cool first and informative second.” So, you know, it’s so much of the reception of content information is the packaging that it comes in. So everything from who’s speaking, to the materials that they’re using, to the design that it comes in is critical. And the research is showing that. In fact, it’s dual-sided. It’s not only the packaging. It’s not only kind of like, does it connect with millennials or the younger generations? But you just mentioned something earlier as well. They did a lot of research. They leaned on research. So when we started, we started looking at some of the research around trust. And you’re talking about trust and institutions, right? And they’ve been studying trust since the early seventies, and they have found that this rising generation now is the least trusting generation since they started measuring this trust. Why? Well, partly it’s because we are living in the information age. Information is at our fingertips.

Ken Krogue: You can check out anything you want.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. You tell me something, I say, “I’m going to check.” And you’re like, “Oh darn it, google.” And so there’s so little trust in politics. There’s so little trust in religious institutions. There’s so little trust culturally in general. But among the few things that these younger generations do trust, when it came to kind of the hierarchy of what they trust, among the top things was science and research. So we have really focused on kind of like let’s provide them the information. The, “Because I said so,” well that hasn’t worked for forever, but for sure it doesn’t work today.

Thom Harrison: It sure doesn’t.

Ken Krogue: In fact, it backfires.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, it often does. So we need to come to the table with information. We need to come to the table with facts and evidence and research. And a lot of that content is, as you guys both well know, hard to read. It’s heavy. It’s kind of, I don’t get what they’re seeing or saying. And, you know, no millennial is going to get through reading research. So, we take the research that’s coming out of institutions like Yale, like Carnegie Mellon, like in the institutions in the UK and in Japan and all over, just major institutions. We take those research articles, and then we package it. We glean from it, and we package it in the way it’s going to connect with young people. So we’re using the facts and evidence, but packaging it in a way that connects with them. And that has opened up an entire world of adoption to, and kind of opened up the road for, individuals to kind of join a movement around a topic that’s pretty taboo and controversial. But, because of the way it’s packaged, they’re coming. You know, a lot of people are opening their eyes to that.

Ken Krogue: That’s awesome. One of our earlier episodes, we talked about some research Thom did back in the late eighties, early nineties, with a graduate student that actually helped launch what we’re doing today. At my former company, insidesales.com, the single biggest thing we ever did was a research study we did with MIT. We called it research marketing. And if you don’t have the facts based on the research, you don’t have the credibility, you know. You’ve been moving down that path of research for a long time and you’re no longer just a speaking organization. But you’ve started building some technology, which is exciting for me to hear.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, you being a tech guy. Right? Yeah. So what happened was that we were going out, we were speaking, we were connecting with people. And we were getting emails from people, some as young as eight years old.

Ken Krogue: Wow.

Clay Olsen: Saying things like, “Hey, I love the mission. I love the message. I’m on board, but I need help. What do you got?” And you know, reading an article about the research isn’t helping me on the recovery path, on the healing side. We’re like, “Oh, well, yeah. I mean that’s fine. That’s not what we do. And so we would list a bunch of options, organizations, great organizations. Organizations that focus and have specialty and certifications on helping people overcome compulsion addiction, all these types of things. And they weren’t going for a few kind of key reasons.

Clay Olsen: One, they were very geographically focused. So, like a lot of times there just wasn’t support in their particular area. Two, a lot of these individuals were younger than 18, and therefore did not have a credit card or money or any sort of way to pay for these, because these are charities. These are organizations that you have to pay for the services. And three, they didn’t have parental consent. So even if they could get the money from a parent, they would require them to open up about these struggles. That was a mount everest they were unwilling to climb. So, what we found at first, it was a handful. Then it was hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of emails coming in saying, “Help, help, help, help.” And we’re like, “What do we do?” And we were trying to work with these different organizations saying, “What can you do?” They are saying, “We can’t do anything without parental consent. We can’t do anything.”

Ken Krogue: Wow.

Clay Olsen: And so that kind of put us in a position where we’re saying, “Okay, that’s not good enough.” You know, this whole idea of like, stay in your dark corner until the problem gets worse. And then, when you turn 18 and you have a credit card, then come talk to us. You know, that wasn’t an option. We were kind of uncovering an entire market of people struggling that nobody was really aware of that was even there. So our focus was at first helping these young people that didn’t have options. You know, when it came to the adults, we were thinking, “Well they have some options, and we can point them in directions.” But, when it came to the youth, they didn’t have any.

Clay Olsen: So our focus was there in the beginning. And we started to develop internally, to Fight the New drug, a tool called fortify. And fortify was, it’s an online experience. It was free for youth. We knew that even if it cost a penny it would be a block that they couldn’t surpass. So it’s free for youth. They could get in. They could learn practical strategies. They could understand some pathways out. They can connect with others on their same path and have people that relate to their own challenges and struggles. And then they could kind of track their behaviors and see patterns that would allow them to ultimately find long lasting freedom. So we created this tool, fortify, and got upward over 100,000 users in over 150 countries without putting a penny into marketing.

Clay Olsen: It was just kind of this explosion of adoption because of the need. And then we started to recognize that what we had created, the architecture and the infrastructure of what we’ve created technologically. The same concept of learned, connected track really would apply to a variety of struggles. And so we then released a separate product called ‘turn’ for substance abuse and those dealing with chemical dependency. Onto that same framework with new content curriculum that we had worked with professionals to help build that out. And then, we released recently a tool called ‘lift’, which is focused on depression and anxiety. So to help people on that same journey in that same path of healing. Between those tools, and we have plans to kind of expand that ecosystem into other categories and areas, but really on a mission to support individuals that are dealing with compulsion, mental health issues. And provide them easy, convenient, affordable, supplemental support tool that can help them in pre therapy, throughout therapy, or an aftercare. Whatever stage of the recovery process there in, it can be this tool that supplements and supports and compliments, whatever else their involved in.

Ken Krogue: Now that’s a separate organization, isn’t it?

Clay Olsen: Yeah. So once we had kind of built this, we had realized, within the nonprofit 500, we had realized that we’ve created a software company. And, as you know, it takes quite a bit to run a software company.

Ken Korgue: That’s why this hair is all gray.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, it takes quite a bit of resources. It took quite a bit to take it to the next level, where we expanded into other categories. We knew that we needed to separate it from the nonprofit. So we gathered investors together and we purchased the software out from the nonprofit into a separate entity and are running that separately. That’s called Impact Collective.

Thom Harrison: Clay, as a mental health professional, I used to see these individuals come into the office. They were just surrounded by gloom and darkness, and they felt so bad. When I’ve referred them to Fight the New Drug and to fortify, into watching these things, I saw a change in their demeanor. I saw them coming in with a sense of, “I have a community. I have people that have struggled with this. And I can compare myself, but also I can trust in that community.” And I saw that they started coming in with new countenance and with new sense of purpose. And also with the commitment that, now that I’ve learned, I can help. I can help other people move past this.

Clay Olsen: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. There’s such a level of… I go to sleep very happy at night because of the knowledge of the fact that we’re helping people.

Ken Krogue: Well, and you’re empowering people to help other people.

Clay Olsen: Yeah.

Ken Krogue: That’s incredible.

Clay Olsen: Yeah, we see the messages coming in of individuals that are first struggling. In fact, I don’t have it with me, but we just received, you know… Last night, I was preparing some things for another project, but came across one of our teen applicants. So that teenager that was writing in, and he talked about in this message, he talked about the fact that he had been struggling, 17 years old, struggling for years. He had felt, he’s a part of a religious community, that he had taken advantage of God’s mercy, because he would promise to abstain and stay away. And then he’d fall right back in.

Clay Olsen: When they come in with this desperation kind of like, “Please help.” And as they engage with the community, as they find that connection, as they start to learn the patterns of their own behaviors, and start to find pathways to break the cycle of compulsion and addiction, there’s an enormous amount of hope that comes in. Then they turn around and want to give that right back to other people and say, “It’s possible. It’s real.” And it’s so satisfying to see that transformation as individuals really get the support and community that they need. And when we look at addiction, you know, Thom, you know this better than anybody. That when we look at addiction or compulsion that really it boils down to oftentimes a deficit in one of three relationships: a relationship with self, a relationship with others (close relationships), and a relationship with a higher power. In many cases, for a lot of religious individuals, God. And if we can heal those relationships, those three relationships, those compulsions start to go by the wayside.

Clay Olsen: If we can focus on really bolstering and fortifying, to use that term, those relationships, we see phenomenal progression.

Thom Harrison: And that’s where you see the change in mental health too. They feel so alone, and they feel like they are caught in this hell or this dysfunction or this illness. And then, when you give them those three components, they start moving out of that. And they see themselves differently. They see the world differently, and no longer does that compulsion have that same structure or control or grasp on them. And they can move forward and move out of it. All of your programs are based on such good, solid information that moves people. And, you know, we within EternalCore have those same beliefs and those same structures to create a community.

Ken Krogue: We don’t have as cool of t-shirts yet.

Thom Harrison: That’s right. Cooler people wearing the t-shirts because cool is always the first thing. You know, I’m still wearing the business suit. But you know, the importance of creating that wonderful community. And, you know, I joked earlier that we’ve used. We know you did it, so we believe we can do it. You’ve done the plowing and you’ve created the wonderful fruit that has come from that plowing. So we’re moving our tractors directly behind you and continuing to plow with you.

Ken Krogue: I have to tell a story that was so funny. Thom’s been actively helping Tim Ballard and the Operation Underground Railroad team help children recover in the aftercare side of things after he retired from his practice. And he gets lots of cool stuff. You know, OUR has some pretty neat… I mean Navy Seals and green berets, and pretty cool t-shirts, all that stuff. So out of the blue my son, who’s a bit of a power lifter, he’s pretty buff. I show up one day, he’s got an OUR t-shirt on. I’m like, “Wow, how’d you find that?” He said, “Dad, this is cool.” And then literally just last week, you know, we’re up at the holidays in Idaho. And he takes off his jacket, and there’s a Fight the New Drug. I mean, “Where’d you find that?” You know, and he said, “Dad, this is cool. This is how it works.” So whatever you’re doing is working. It’s pretty powerful.

Clay Olsen: You guys can improve upon it, I’m sure.

Thom Harrison: But they align with it. They’re not just wearing a t-shirt. They aligned with it.

Ken Krogue: It’s an identity.

Thom Harrison: So it creates, you know, an increase in their idea of, “If I’m aligning with this, then I better be a good emissary. Then I better walk the walk and talk the talk.” And I love that about Fight the New Drug because I’m seeing it everywhere. I go into Costco, and they’re these millennials with these Fight the New Drug t-shirts. You can tell they wear it with pride. It’s not just cool. They’re saying, “I believe in this” and they’re willing to say, “I’ve struggled with this” or “I’m behind this and joined the community, and I’m going to be an example of this structure.”

Clay Olsen: One of my favorite things is when I see somebody. I’m out in wherever I am. And it’s happened to me all over the country actually, where we’ve randomly seen somebody wearing a t-shirt. One of my favorite things to do is just walk up to him. They don’t know who I am, and so I just walk up and say, “Hey, cool shirt.” And they’re like, “Oh, thanks man. I appreciate that.” And I would walk away.

Thom Harrison: They’ll go home and look at your webpage and go, “That guy sure looked like this guy.”

Clay Olsen: “Wow, he was the guy!”

Thom Harrison: Well, we appreciate so much you coming today. We appreciate what you’ve done. You’ve created an amazing community of healing and of growth and raising that standard. It’s just so wonderful to be with you and chat with you. Do you have any parting…

Ken Krogue: Yeah, darn it. We’re out of time. But hey, I want to keep tugging on that thread. Maybe another episode about your technology and this research. And you’ve been bragging about some of your team members who really know this stuff maybe…

Clay Olsen: Oh yeah.

Ken Krogue: What would your recommendation, we can get some someone else back here with the team.

Clay Olsen: Yes. I would recommend. I’d recommend you talking to Jacob Hess. Jacob Hess has done so much work in the field of healing with depression, anxiety, and all types of different addictions. You know, you guys will have a lot to talk about, I’m sure. So, definitely get him on the show.

Ken Krogue: We’ll do that. We’ll do that. You’re fairly connected. You can make it happen. Okay.

Thom Harrison: So all that we’ve talked about, you can find more online at fightthenewdrug.org

Clay Olsen: joinfortify.com.

Thom Harrison: I mean there’s just so much more out there. We sure appreciate having Clay Olsen with us today and we appreciate you joining us today.

Ken Krogue: Thanks clay.

Clay Olsen: Thank you.

Ken Krogue: Thanks everybody.

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