Ken Krogue: Hello everybody, back again with Thom Harrison and Ken Krogue at EternalCore. We’ve got Alema Harrington. We talked him into coming back, and we appreciate you spending time. We’re going to get into the nuts and bolts now of the current… I mean you’re doing a lot of good now as a substance abuse counselor at Renaissance Ranch. And you’ve also been a little bit tied with this. You’re seeing this billboard up and down the I-15 corridor, in magazines. Tell us a little about it. It’s a big deal.
Alema Harrington: I think the state health department has done a fantastic job and opidemec.org you can get, you know, all these statistics. And here’s an interesting part of it is we talk about the opiate epidemic or opioids, and really they’re one in the same. But so many people that are, you know, might be viewing right now, they’re like, “I don’t even know what that is.”
Ken Krogue: Yeah, walk us through that.
Alema Harrington: So part of it is you can go on their website and you can research this anywhere now at this point, right, with the Internet and find out what opiates are. It’s like that’s a Lortab, Vicodin, cough syrups that have hydrocodone in them. Right, in these different medications that are out there, including the Oxycodones that are out there, which would include Oxycontin or Percocet. You know, there’s a lot of people that aren’t… Like when they see this, they’re like, “I’m not sure what they’re talking about.” Well, one of the illustrations I think that you get from this particular ad here or campaign is that heroin and pain pills are basically the same thing, right? They’re derived from the same chemical, the opiate—heroin coming from the poppy plant. And then the opiates or opioids that come from… That are created, you know, produced as a chemical. But, the effect is the same.
Ken Krogue: Wow.
Alema Harrington: And now we’re dealing with an even stronger opiate out there or opioid out there, which is fentanyl, which is killing. You know, it’s so powerful, and it’s mixed with heroin, it’s mixed with other drugs and counterfeit pills that are available on the black market, dark web, all these things.
Thom Harrison: Well it used to be only used as an anesthetic, you know. Anesthesiologists were the only…
Alema Harrington: That would have access to that. Right?
Thom Harrison: Right. But now, you know, that’s the problem. It’s being mixed with these other substances.
Alema Harrington: So powerful. And I mean, I think the common ones that you hear of now is well Prince died from fentanyl, right, the singer. And then, of course you know of Michael Jackson’s experience. Where he was so heavily addicted for so many years, right. And then he had a personal doctor at a certain point that was…
Thom Harrison: Supplying him daily. Yeah.
Alema Harrington: These very powerful, you know, opiates to him at his request. And we ended up losing one of the great entertainers, singers, pop stars, that this the world has known, speaking of Michael Jackson. That’s personally, in my opinion. But this campaign I think is powerful because of the educational component and helping the public understand that we’re dealing with a public health crisis. And 80% of the people that end up on heroin are introduced to opiates or become addicted to an opiate or opioid through a prescribed medication. So, you know, as you talked about Thom, the importance to understand is that many of us are exposed to that at some point in our lives. You think of all the moms out there, that their first exposure to an opiate might’ve been post childbirth.
Thom Harrison: Right.
Alema Harrington: And if you have a predisposition genetically to addiction, then you know, the effect that that has, it could trigger your addiction. We know now so much more than we’ve known in years past about how quickly you can become addicted. That if you’re on a pain medication for three, five, seven days, your chance of becoming addicted and physically dependent rises dramatically from day to day. As opposed to when I was coming through, it was not uncommon for you to be prescribed a hundred pills at a time. And now we know from prescribing protocol that that is extremely irresponsible. And that the opiate prescribing protocols need to be adjusted so that really an opiate is prescribed for, you know, acute pain for mild to moderate pain. And, in our society today, we think, “Oh man, I’ve got a headache. I need an opiate.” “No, you don’t.”
Ken Krogue: No
Alema Harrington: “You really don’t.” You might need a drink of water, right? You’re probably dehydrated. But we live in this instant gratification society now, or you know, we’re accustomed to, “I should be able to be relieved of any discomfort immediately.”
Thom Harrison: Yeah, and if you take that Enset or if you take that, you know, Tylenol, Acetaminophen, then you’re actually going to increase the headache because you’re drying yourself out even more. It’s amazing what a couple of good glasses of water will do to a headache.
Alema Harrington: Yeah. And it’s, I think important for us to understand that opiates aren’t necessarily the answer. And we’re not here to get into a big pharma discussion or any of those. It’s just having, you know, being able to make an educated decision for my own personal health. I mean, we’re much more conscious of that today. You know, what I’m going to put into my body, what I’m going to eat and what those effects are.
Ken Krogue: You know, Alema, my son, we got a call from the high school. And they said, “We’re really worried about your son. Is he using?” I mean he was having sort of a trip, something going on in the middle of class. And we brought him home and he had just had his wisdom teeth out and was prescribed some Percocet. And he was like really just freaking out. We got him home. I go out on the web, and I starting researching what Percocet is. And you know, he had a bottle, not very many, but he had, like you said, two, three days and he was calling my wife saying, “I need another one. I need one.” And we’re like, “Wow, what is going on?” So I’m a little bit aggressive. I marched right down to, it was his dentist, and I said, “Do you realize what you just gave my son?”
Ken Krogue: I said, “The web’s telling me Percocet is Oxycontin with like an Acetaminophen covering, that like makes it time delay.” I said, “It’s the same class of drug as oxycodone.” Do you know what he said to me? He said, “I wouldn’t do that.” I said, “Walk with me.” We walked to his front desk, pulled up Google, and I showed him the very article. He wasn’t aware of that, you know. I bet he is now. But this is something where education is pretty critical. And you’re telling me if he had kept going, even a few more days that might’ve been a gateway into… You know, that scared me to death.
Alema Harrington: And I think we’re more conscious of that today but still. Again, going back to your experience with this DMD, I’m assuming. You know, the dentist, if you go to medical school very little is spent in a pharmacology discussion or education. So as doctors, you know, trying to be more efficient. I’m not here to speak on behalf of doctors.
Ken Krogue: You tapped a nerve with me on that one, but that made me worried.
Alema Harrington: But still, there’s more education that we can do. And unfortunately, that means that there’s legislation that has to be passed and, you know, certain requirements. Which, for the doctor, it seems like, “Man, now you’re making my job harder. I’ve got to go through all these protocols and different things. I’ve got to look up on DOPL and see if this person has got more prescriptions.” And for the doctor, it feels that you’re making my life inefficient here and my ability to see patients. So it’s a process that we’re working on. But, you know, the big part is for us to understand, for us as individuals that I have some power. And my power is to become educated. When I go see the doctor, and the doctor prescribes me something, I don’t just say, “Okay, great.” I say, “Hey, do I really need that?”
Ken Krogue: That took me five minutes on Google.
Alema Harrington: Yeah. Do I really need an oxycodone, a very powerful opiate, which lends itself, is prone to addiction and abuse? Do I need that in my home? Do I need 30 of them in my home?
Thom Harrison: Do I want those in my medical cabinet?
Alema Harrington: Right.
Thom Harrison: So my kids or my kids’ friends can then…Yeah.
Alema Harrington: Yeah. So I think part of the Utah State health department’s campaign with the opidemic is to understand that, you know, we need to learn more. We need to be empowered with information and education. So, I’ve been fortunate, they’ve invited me to participate in that, and share my story. Because again, you know, this number, which is to a degree a little bit mind boggling, understanding that 80% of people that end up on heroin started with pain medication, right?
Alema Harrington: So, you know, the path to that is the pain medication gets harder and harder to get. But now, I’m already addicted. So what are my options? My options are you can buy pills off the street, very expensive. Or, you know, you’ll find out the information that’s like, “Hey, you could buy heroin. It’s way cheaper.” Right? And more powerful depending on what you’re getting. The truth is you never know what you’re getting on the street. And having been through that myself, one of the more dangerous things you will ever do is to put your trust in a drug dealer that’s selling you drugs. I mean there is no honor among thieves, and you never know what you’re going to get, but that path is very clear. I see it regularly with a person that is going down that opiate addiction path, which starts with pain medication and ends up with heroin.
Thom Harrison: Well a physician has been taught in medical school that one of their jobs is to manage pain. So, for a long period of time, their concentration was, you know, they just had surgery. I’ve just pulled out his teeth. I’ve just done this, so I need to manage the pain.
Alema Harrington: And that’s an oath. That’s not just a right. That’s an oath that you take.
Thom Harrison: Right. Above all, do no harm. But the bottom line is often you’re not thinking, you know. I’m just managing this pain for a short period of time.
Ken Krogue: Pretty soon it starts managing you.
Thom Harrison: Right. Then you run into deep problems. Another issue is the drug itself. I remember when I was in high school, Alema. And we were all moved into the gym. They showed this film that was done in the forties or fifties about marijuana.
Alema Harrington: Reefer madness.
Thom Harrison: Reefer Madness. That’s what they showed us. And I remember sitting there and thinking, “This has absolutely nothing to do with me.” Look at those guys. They’re a bunch of punks, or they’re just a bunch of people. I don’t relate to people like this. I don’t hang out with people like it. So I thought, “This has absolutely nothing to do with me and my life.” I think that is really changing. I think people are realizing, especially with media and with the cell phones we have, and the electronics, this is affecting everybody across the entire spectrum of socioeconomic. Everyone is involved in this.
Alema Harrington: It’s, you know, going back to the phrase that you would hear all the time, which is that “Addiction is no respecter of persons.” It doesn’t discriminate. And the way that I describe it sometimes is, “It doesn’t go around with a checklist and say, “Oh, you pay your tithing. Okay, we’re not going to bother you. Oh, you’re married in the temple. We’re not going to bother you. Oh, you’re a 4.0 student. We’re not”… It doesn’t. There’s no qualifications, you know, that make you exempt from this disease. If you’re exposed to it, then you are as likely as anyone else to be able to contract the disease of addiction and have it affect your brain and your thinking process.
Alema Harrington: And so it’s important, again I think as you mentioned, to understand that it doesn’t matter what you look like, what your social economic background is, your race, religion, you know. Any of these things, they’re not taking into consideration. So, when people see me oftentimes and I’d say, “Oh yeah, you know, I’m a personal, long-term recovering addict.” They’re like, “No, not you.” Right? Because, I don’t look like that. Because the expectation is that, “Okay, somebody that is addicted, they look like the person that I see on the street corner.” You know, let’s say a quote unquote wino to use that type of term.
Thom Harrison: Wrapped up in a sleeping bag and having DT’s.
Alema Harrington: Yeah. Homeless and, you know, urinating on themselves, and all these things that we would associate. That’s not the full picture of what we’re dealing with. Yes, there’s probably some addiction and some mental health issues involved there. But the addict is, you know, the housewife with two kids that maybe was introduced through childbirth to addictive pain medication, became hooked, and now can’t stop using.
Thom Harrison: Another difficulty that I’m seeing from my friends and colleagues is these folks then end up in an emergency department, and you don’t know how to treat them because you don’t know what’s in them. Sometimes you interact with the person in the emergency department and you find out, “Well, I’ve had four shots of whiskey. Last night I drank half a pint of vodka. I’ve also shot up with heroin, and I don’t have a clue what was in that cause I got it from a new dealer.” So you’re doing a toxicology screen on this individual, and you find that what you’re really dealing with is some anesthetic. And that’s what’s creating the major problem. And if you just treat him for this, you’re making it worse. So what I’m trying to say is many of these individuals use many different types of medication. And when that presents itself, it can become a very difficult situation.
Alema Harrington: Yeah, and a very toxic cocktail, right? We’re talking about just brain chemicals or chemicals being released. Because many of these drugs, what they do is they increase a release of dopamine or they block the uptake in the brain of excess, you know, dopamine. So then you have an overload of these chemicals in the brain. So then you have this toxic mixture of these drugs that are being used. You know, one of the big ones that we deal with… And I was with Brian Best from the DEA yesterday, and one of the concerns is increasingly now benzodiazepines, which is the Xanax and Valium, and very dangerous drugs.
Thom Harrison: Clonazepam.
Alema Harrington: Yeah, and very commonly prescribed, right, for anxiety.
Thom Harrison: Correct.
Alema Harrington: Right. So we’re looking at it from a pharmacological standpoint, whether it’s that or the methamphetamines or amphetamines like Adderall that are commonly prescribed for attention deficit disorder. Right. The Adderall and methamphetamine on the street are almost identical when you look at the chemical structure of those drugs. So I think we have to be more aware of and educated when it comes to, “What am I exposing myself to?” And, “Are there alternatives and options to an opioid, to an Adderall, to a Xanax?
Thom Harrison: People don’t realize, is that Adderall is just pharmaceutical grade cocaine. I mean it’s just a pharmaceutical grade process. I think most people don’t have a clue, and they’re giving that to young kids or they’re giving that… And then you wonder why they become involved. And please, yes, some people do better on Adderall, but all of that needs to be understood. Addicts are horrible historians. If you start asking them, “What have you taken? Or What’s going on?” They will, you know, they always minimize, but it was not that much. But they’ve also forgotten because of the addiction. They don’t see the correlation. They don’t see everything you just took 24 hours ago is now mixing very poorly with what you just took two hours ago. And that’s what’s brought you to the emergency room.
Alema Harrington: Yeah, and I think you make a great point, Thom. In understanding that you know, as I look at the disease, and I work with addicts and alcoholics at Renaissance Ranch. And my personal experience, is denial and minimization are big components in the disease of addiction. So you know, the disease if you will, if you look at it as this entity is trying to survive. And by surviving, part of what its job to do is to minimize like, “Oh, it’s not that bad.” Right? Or, you know, to justify, “Oh, I need this because the doctor said.” And, “I have this disorder and I need these medications.” So it’s constantly trying to survive, speaking of the disease, and justify, and minimize, and deny. These are all ego-defense mechanisms, if you will, that are trying to support the survival of this behavior. So, you know, for us, it’s still in the understanding of whether or not there are options, and there are. At Renaissance Ranch, we present these options and in the holistic approach, because they’re cognitive in nature. But they’re also spiritual in nature or in their different ways.
Alema Harrington: And I think for people out there that might be investigating options, similar to if I were to be diagnosed with cancer, would I, if somebody said, “Well, here are your options.” And one of them was spiritual, and I said, “I’m not doing that.” If I had cancer, I’d be desperate, like whatever you got, let me try it. And hopefully what we…
Ken Krogue: Well, you said in an earlier episode that it was the spiritual component that finally made you over the line for the lasting healing. Is that right?
Alema Harrington: Yeah. And as I combine those two, the cognitive therapeutic approaches and the other modalities, you know, psychologically that are available to me… Even for me to be able to sustain or execute those different, let’s say exercises that are necessary for me to be able to work myself through and out of my addictive, the craziness of my brain. I can’t do that on my own. Me personally, I need God’s help. I need a power greater than myself to give me the necessary strength to overcome.
Ken Krogue: Well, and you talked about power with God but also power with community and with giving back. I mean, I know that a lot of the folks that get involved… My dear friend, I just was at a graveside funeral about a month ago. And I’ve known him since he was 16. We were the same age, early fifties, and he’d been using for… He had not gone four days in 15 years without something. And we started working with him purely from a spiritual perspective. And he went as long as seven and a half years without challenges. But, I used to go with him to narcotics anonymous, which NA, and he needed a sponsor. And during that time, just personally, I just made mental note. And then I made a little journal entry to myself just saying, “Okay, what kind of people am I meeting here?”
Ken Krogue: And we met 40 people over the course of well over a year, and only one of them was addicted to illegal drugs, my friend. You know, meth, cocaine, heroin. But 39 of them, it was about prescription drugs. And I got to know them pretty well. And over half of the 39, they were working in the medical community so they could be somewhat close. Almost every one of them, you had mentioned, changed some prescriptions and got in trouble that way. It’s amazing to me the gateway processes. I’m going to ask a pretty hard question. We just, as a state, approved medical marijuana through the voting process. What were you thinking during that time? When you were thinking, Wow, you know, I understand some of this? Is this all good? Is it all bad? What was going through your process as the State of Utah was voting on that big question?
Alema Harrington: There’s a couple of things that come to mind, and I’m not shy about sharing. And that is number one, that the information that we have about the benefits and the side effects of marijuana are not well documented or disseminated. I was recently down at a conference in Saint George, one of the largest substance abuse conferences that takes place in our country. And the information coming out now about the side effects from marijuana are very under reported. Because the lobby on behalf of the legalization is so powerful. So I think again, it’s coming back to the importance of the information.
Ken Krogue: So we don’t know yet?
Alema Harrington: Yeah. There’s no doubt that opiates have a medical benefit. And so do all of the other medications that we’re talking about. If we legalized marijuana for medical use, then yes, it has a medical benefit, but it also has negative side effects. Again, the question is, are there options? Second to that, right? Aside from whether it’s being legalized. Even if it’s legalized for recreational use, which it is in some states, right? Then that doesn’t make it any different than alcohol. We don’t look at alcohol or cigarettes and say, “Oh those things aren’t harmful just because they’re legal, right? So I deal with clients that, “Well if marijuana becomes legalized, then can I smoke marijuana?” It’s like, you’re… “No.” I mean sure you can. I mean I’m not here to tell anybody what you can or cannot do. But, as an addict and alcoholic, that doesn’t mean that all of a sudden because the government decided, or the people decided, this is a legal substance, that now it’s okay. I can use it without any harm for me.
Thom Harrison: Right
Alema Harrington: So it’s important to understand that just because alcohol is legal, right? It’s a big moneymaker for our government cause it’s taxed just like tobacco is taxed. And the legalization of marijuana is going to have a heavy tax on it that will benefit the government financially. But the question for me is like how much of that money is going to be taken out to treat those who suffer the ill effects of the marijuana, or become addicted or a gateway from marijuana into other drugs? So still it becomes an education, you know, for each of us individually or in our homes, and in our families. Let’s make informed, educated, wise decisions. And, again, that’s just a component of it. Because, outside of that education and prevention, regardless of all the efforts that we put there, there’s still going to be a percentage of the population that will end up with the disease of addiction. So let’s make sure that we have resources to treat the disease.
Thom Harrison: In my 41 years of practice, three things come up in listening to what you just said. The first one is all pharmaceuticals and all drugs affect everyone uniquely. And you don’t know how that drug is going to affect you. And, you know, we put out there from the pharmaceutical industry that if you take Prozac, this is going to be the benefit. I have never seen a person take Prozac that had the same effect as this person and this person. Everybody has to know what that pharmaceutical is going to do for you. Marijuana, again, we don’t have that data. I personally, in my 41 years of practice, saw that it affected motivation in a lot of people; it affected personality in a lot of people. It certainly affected sexual functioning in a lot of people. And every individual who takes a drug, and again, do you know the source? Because marijuana just isn’t marijuana. There’s this kind of marijuana, and this kind of marijuana, and this guy. And they have different strengths. Again, you don’t know how it’s going to affect you. And I’ve seen some people that they can become like the energizer bunny and work really hard with it, but it affects their spirituality. It affects their connection with God.
Ken Krogue: You’ve mentioned that multiple times.
Thom Harrison: It affects their relationship with their wife and their spouse. It starts to affect the way they function at work. So I think everyone needs to look at this and say, “I’m just not going to go out and get CBD oil.” And even though it doesn’t have all the same chemical structures of the THC that marijuana does, but it’s going to affect everyone uniquely. And you better figure out how it’s going to affect you if you’re planning on using it. Because Jenny over here might have this response, but Phyllis is going to have a very different experience on that same amount of drug, or those brownies, or that CBD oil. It is a chemical compound that affects the body. And some people get profoundly addicted, or dependent, they say. But what’s that dependency going to look like for you? So, all I say is, “Caution. Caution. Caution. Be careful.”
Alema Harrington: Yeah. And just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s safe.
Thom Harrison: Well arsenic is legal, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone taking it. And it’s natural.
Ken Krogue: Alema, we’ve just got a couple of minutes left. You’ve done an amazing thing the last few years. You’ve gone back to school, and you’re now giving back in a major way. Not just with your influence in sports and the sports world, but tell us about that journey that you’ve just been on. It’s pretty amazing.
Alema Harrington: Really, it has been amazing. I’ve been so fortunate to be able to go back. And you know, I’ve been working in the broadcast industry for going on 25 years now. And since my time at BYU and then in ’92 I got sober and then was working in the broadcast business. And then, 2002, I had a relapse, and then I got sober again. And then I continued to work in that field. But, at a certain point, I made a decision like, you know, to continue learning more about it. There was a time, and I’ll admit my arrogance, where I really felt like my practical experience is what makes me the expert, and being able to share my experience with others.
Alema Harrington: I think maybe to a degree, I minimize the importance of the psychological and the medical information that we have related to the disease of addiction. I had written some memoirs and some thoughts and had the intent to publish some of these writings that I had done. And I wanted to put something besides recovering addict. In my mind, I thought, “If I throw some letters behind that, some credentials, maybe it’s got a little more impact.” So I went back to Utah Valley University. I applied for their substance use disorder program and was admitted. Already had a bachelor’s degree from BYU in sociology. So, I went back, and I was so grateful.
Ken Krogue: How long did that take you?
Alema Harrington: It took me two years total to get my degree, my substance use disorder counseling degrees, after my bachelors. I’m so grateful that I did that, because the information that I gained, aside from, you know, there’s plenty of education that involves the group counseling, and those different models, and the importance of how those groups work. But the information I got from a pharmacological standpoint, and then from a medical standpoint, understanding the brain disorder that we are dealing with. And we’re so fortunate now that we can pull up brain scans, and we can see activity in the brain. And we can see the difference between the addicted brain or the brain that is on drugs. And it’s not the old, you know, scene that you witnessed in a commercial that says, “This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs” and it’s like a frying pan. The truth is your brain lights up when it’s on drugs, because the dopamine and chemicals are just exploding in there. So we have a better understanding of…
Thom Harrison: And the high might last 20 minutes, but the damage to the brain’s going on for 48 more hours.
Alema Harrington: Right, and then the inability for us to continue to produce naturally those chemicals has just a dire effect on our mental health and wellbeing. So it’s like all of those things were so beneficial for me to be able to carry the message from practical experience standpoint, but also have the background and education associated with my counseling degree, which gave me an understanding of what’s going on in the brain. The prefrontal cortex versus the amygdala or the midbrain. And how, you know, this disease robs us of our agency because of the power of that midbrain that is not sending suggestions, right? It’s sending commands, and the command… And I could relate to this. The command was, “We need more alcohol or we’re going to die.” Right? You know, you talk to the alcoholic, and for me, I’m not sure that I understood why do I drink till I throw up? Like why do I do that? Right? When my intent was like, I’m just going to have a few drinks and enjoy myself, but I don’t do that. I don’t stop there. The reason why is because, in the addicted brain, the amygdala or the midbrain is sending a message as a chemical reaction to the ingesting of the alcohol that there’s this allergic reaction. As Doctor Silkworth in the Big Book back in the thirties described it, which is the phenomenon of the craving, which sends this message from my midbrain in charge of my survival that says, “We need more alcohol, or we’re going to die.”
Ken Krogue: Wow
Alema Harrington: Right? So the normal person drinks and gets a little tipsy and they feel good. Then they’re like… Then they stop. All right. But the alcoholic is very different in the way that their brain operates. And similarly with the pills and other drugs, I will continue to use, even though I’ve had more than sufficient to, you know, accomplish what I was trying to accomplish, which is some relief of pain, you know? So it was helping me understand that that behavior, which seems crazy for the alcoholic, is a very normal response from the alcoholic brain. Yeah.
Thom Harrison: And the brain lies to us. Yeah. I mean I know people who keep eating until they vomit.
Alema Harrington: Right. And so it’s, you know, for me it has been an understanding of that part of the disease. And then being able to work from a cognitive standpoint and from a spiritual component standpoint and get out of my midbrain or my amygdala and raise my thoughts to my prefrontal cortex, which is where my values are, right? And my ability to assess things and to connect with divine. Those all reside in my prefrontal cortex. If I can have cognitive exercises to help me get out of my midbrain and into my prefrontal cortex, that’s beneficial. And then that helps me connect with the divine, which is where my real power exists is there. But, if I’m in my mid brain, I’m in trouble, because that’s my natural man, if you will, is here.
Thom Harrison: Right. And not a lot of logic takes over there. Alema, we really appreciate your coming and chatting with us. It’s been just a pleasure.
Alema Harrington: Thank you.
Thom Harrison: We’re really looking forward to you at the conference and what you have to offer.
Alema Harrington: I’m excited. I’m excited about the conferences because of the variety of, you know, different views that we’ll hear. And I’m a big fan of a lot of the presenters and looking forward to having the opportunity to be with those presenters and present on behalf of Renaissance Ranch and some of the work that we do there. So I would encourage you to please join us. It’s gonna be a good time at the Little America. I love when we have the energy of people that are looking for solutions. It’s powerful. It’s a powerful thing.
Thom Harrison: We’re creating a team, creating a community and we’re so glad to have you part of that community, Alema, thanks so much.
Alema Harrington: Thank you.
Ken Krogue: Alema Harrington from Renaissance Ranch and works with the Jazz. You all know him. He’s been so kind to share several episodes. His story, you know, his own recovery, and going back to school. And now he’s given back to all of us. Thanks so much.
Alema Harrington: Thank you.
